Best of the Week
Most Popular
1. Investing in a Bubble Mania Stock Market Trending Towards Financial Crisis 2.0 CRASH! - 9th Sep 21
2.Tech Stocks Bubble Valuations 2000 vs 2021 - 25th Sep 21
3.Stock Market FOMO Going into Crash Season - 8th Oct 21
4.Stock Market FOMO Hits September Brick Wall - Evergrande China's Lehman's Moment - 22nd Sep 21
5.Crypto Bubble BURSTS! BTC, ETH, XRP CRASH! NiceHash Seizes Funds on Account Halting ALL Withdrawals! - 19th May 21
6.How to Protect Your Self From a Stock Market CRASH / Bear Market? - 14th Oct 21
7.AI Stocks Portfolio Buying and Selling Levels Going Into Market Correction - 11th Oct 21
8.Why Silver Price Could Crash by 20%! - 5th Oct 21
9.Powell: Inflation Might Not Be Transitory, After All - 3rd Oct 21
10.Global Stock Markets Topped 60 Days Before the US Stocks Peaked - 23rd Sep 21
Last 7 days
Best AI Tech Stocks ETF and Investment Trusts - 19th Oct 21
Gold Mining Stocks: Will Investors Dump the Laggards? - 19th Oct 21
The Most Exciting Medical Breakthrough Of The Decade? - 19th Oct 21
Prices Rising as New Dangers Point to Hard Assets - 19th Oct 21
It’s not just Copper; GYX indicated cyclical the whole time - 19th Oct 21
Chinese Tech Stocks CCP Paranoia, VIES - Variable Interest Entities - 19th Oct 21
Inflation Peaked Again, Right? - 19th Oct 21
Gold Stocks Bouncing Hard - 19th Oct 21
Stock Market New Intermediate Bottom Forming? - 19th Oct 21
Beware, Gold Bulls — That’s the Beginning of the End - 18th Oct 21
Gold Price Flag Suggests A Big Rally May Start Soon - 18th Oct 21
Inflation Or Deflation – End Result Is Still Depression - 18th Oct 21
A.I. Breakthrough Could Disrupt the $11 Trillion Medical Sector - 18th Oct 21
US Economy and Stock Market Addicted to Deficit Spending - 17th Oct 21
The Gold Price And Inflation - 17th Oct 21
Went Long the Crude Oil? Beware of the Headwinds Ahead… - 17th Oct 21
Watch These Next-gen Cloud Computing Stocks - 17th Oct 21
Overclockers UK Custom Built PC 1 YEAR Use Review Verdict - Does it Still Work? - 16th Oct 21
Altonville Mine Tours Maze at Alton Towers Scarefest 2021 - 16th Oct 21
How to Protect Your Self From a Stock Market CRASH / Bear Market? - 14th Oct 21
The Only way to Crush Inflation (not stocks) - 14th Oct 21
Why "Losses Are the Norm" in the Stock Market - 14th Oct 21
Sub Species Castle Maze at Alton Towers Scarefest 2021 - 14th Oct 21
Which Wallet is Best for Storing NFTs? - 14th Oct 21
Ailing UK Pound Has Global Effects - 14th Oct 21
How to Get 6 Years Life Out of Your Overclocked PC System, Optimum GPU, CPU and MB Performance - 13th Oct 21
The Demand Shock of 2022 - 12th Oct 21
4 Reasons Why NFTs Could Be The Future - 12th Oct 21
Crimex Silver: Murder Most Foul - 12th Oct 21
Bitcoin Rockets In Preparation For Liftoff To $100,000 - 12th Oct 21
INTEL Tech Stock to the MOON! INTC 2000 vs 2021 Market Bubble WARNING - 11th Oct 21
AI Stocks Portfolio Buying and Selling Levels Going Into Market Correction - 11th Oct 21
Stock Market Wall of Worry Meets NFPs - 11th Oct 21
Stock Market Intermediate Correction Continues - 11th Oct 21
China / US Stock Markets Divergence - 10th Oct 21
Can US Save Taiwan From China? Taiwan Strait Naval Battle - PLA vs 7th Fleet War Game Simulation - 10th Oct 21
Gold Price Outlook: The Inflation Chasm Between Europe and the US - 10th Oct 21
US Real Estate ETFs React To Rising Housing Market Mortgage Interest Rates - 10th Oct 21
US China War over Taiwan Simulation 2021, Invasion Forecast - Who Will Win? - 9th Oct 21
When Will the Fed Taper? - 9th Oct 21
Dancing with Ghouls and Ghosts at Alton Towers Scarefest 2021 - 9th Oct 21
Stock Market FOMO Going into Crash Season - 8th Oct 21
Scan Computers - Custom Build PC 6 Months Later, Reliability, Issues, Quality of Tech Support Review - 8th Oct 21
Gold and Silver: Your Financial Main Battle Tanks - 8th Oct 21
How to handle the “Twin Crises” Evergrande and Debt Ceiling Threatening Stocks - 8th Oct 21
Why a Peak in US Home Prices May Be Approaching - 8th Oct 21
Alton Towers Scarefest is BACK! Post Pandemic Frights Begin, What it's Like to Enter Scarefest 2021 - 8th Oct 21
AJ Bell vs II Interactive Investor - Which Platform is Best for Buying US FAANG Stocks UK Investing - 7th Oct 21
Gold: Evergrande Investors' Savior - 7th Oct 21
Here's What Really Sets Interest Rates (Not Central Banks) - 7th Oct 21

Market Oracle FREE Newsletter

How to Protect your Wealth by Investing in AI Tech Stocks

U.S. Housing Market Bulls vs Bears Showdown

Housing-Market / US Housing May 23, 2012 - 06:51 PM GMT

By: Bloomberg

Housing-Market

Best Financial Markets Analysis Article**HOUSING SHOWDOWN: Housing bear Gary Shilling and housing bull Mark Kiesel of PIMCO debated the state of the U.S. housing market on Bloomberg Television's "Street Smart" with Trish Regan and Adam Johnson.

Shilling said that housing prices will decline 20% this year because "there are 2 million inventories, both visible and shadow inventories, over and above normal working levels", which is "a tremendous overhang." He went on to say that "excess inventories are the mortal enemy of prices."


Kiesel justified his bullish stance on the market, saying that, "all inventories you look at, whether new existing or shadow, they are coming down" and "there is only 144,000 new home sales for sale. That's at a 49-year low."

Kiesel on purchasing a home in California and whether he's having buyer's remorse:

"No. I will say it is a little chaotic because there are a lot of boxes around. I think after renting for six years, my view is that housing prices have fallen about 35% and the inventories are coming down and banks are starting to lend again gradually. U.S. housing looks very cheap relative to international housing. I feel good about putting some money into housing right now."

Shilling on why housing prices will decline 20% this year:

"Because of excess inventories. We estimate that there are 2 million inventories, both visible and shadow inventories over and above normal working levels. That is a lot. Back in normal times, we built about a million and a half houses a year, so two and a half million is a tremendous overhang. Excess inventories are the mortal enemy of prices. What may happen here is that now that the robo signing flap is settled and the big banks settled for $25 billion with the various state attorneys general and the federal government, they have been holding off on foreclosures because they had enough bad PR. Now they have settled that, I think they will go back to foreclosures. The National Association of Realtors says that when foreclosed houses are sold, they sell at a discount of 19% to existing houses and that drags everything down when you get a big dumping of these houses on the market. I'm looking for another 20% decline and that is what it would take to bring them back to the long-term averages. They go back to 1890 in terms of median single-family house prices."

Kiesel on how he factor in those inventory levels:

"Currently, we have 2.5 million homes in existing inventories which is down in the last seven years from 4 million. There is only 144,000 new home sales for sale. That's at a 49-year low. The existing inventory is at a seven-year low. If you look at the shadow inventory, there were 3.6 million homes that were 90+ days delinquent two years ago. Today, there is only 2.9. All inventories you look at, whether new existing or shadow, they are coming down."

Shilling's response:

"They are coming down, but they are still huge...Yeah, they are down, but when you count in the shadow, and particularly this category that the Census Bureau has, which are houses held off the market for other reasons, very descriptive. This includes foreclosed houses that are vacant, but not yet sold. It includes houses that people have listed, but they couldn't stomach the bids they got so pulled them off the market. You count all of that in and you are still over a working inventory of about 2.5 million. You are still 2 million above that when you count everything in."

Kiesel on what number he's tracking:

"What I was quoting was the 90+ day delinquencies. If you add that with the foreclosures, you do get to the 3.9 level. The thing about housing is that it's very much a regional market. The homes that your viewers and people actually would want to buy, you need to look at the existing inventory that is quality. Go out and look for a house now. There is less quality inventory on the market today than a year ago. That shadow inventory will get absorbed quicker than you think because the implied rental yields is roughly 5%-12% in a lot of markets, so investors will line up. Gary, I respect your work and I read your books and if housing goes down 20%, I will back up the truck and likely PIMCO will, too."

Shilling's response:

"That's right. At that point the percentage underwater of mortgages would go from now 23% to our estimate is 40%. The equity of people who have mortgages which has come from almost 50% in the early eighties to 17% would go down to about 7%. Virtually nobody with a mortgage would have any equity. What that would do to consumer spending to say nothing to mortgages and mortgage-backed securities derivatives, that is pretty heavy duty stuff. That is recessionary kinds of things. We think that will happen over the next three-four years, one way or the other."

Kiesel on whether employment levels are at a stage at which consumers are feeling confident enough to make an investment in buying a home:

"If you look at it, we have added 2 million jobs in the private sector over the last year. Confidence is picking up. The U.S. economy is doing well in numerous states and sectors like energy pipelines, technology, autos, manufacturing. There are many areas in the country where there is a housing shortage. The shadow inventory and the amount of homes underwater, there are 11 million homes but it is concentrated really in three states: Arizona, 61%, Florida, 45%. Yes, there are some weak areas, but the fact is that in certain areas, housing is picking up and prices are going up and so again, it's very regional."

Shilling's response:

"You and I can remember almost a decade ago as this problem was developing and we were on top of it and you were too, that people initially said, the problem was only in subprime mortgages and those are loans that luckily people will never have to meet. Then, they said it is only in Arizona and Florida and Phoenix. Then as it expanded, they said it is bicoastal, don't worry. Everyone else is safe. Tip O'Neill said that all politics is local and you can say the same thing about real estate. Somehow, the composite, the national numbers are made up of those local pieces. There are a lot of shortages here or the other place. That I think is begging the question, overall, there is still a tremendous excess inventory."

Kiesel on whether he'll lower his assumptions about the economy:

"We are looking at basically 1-1.5% real GDP, but you don't necessarily need superfast GDP to get housing to recover. Housing again is down 35%. The inventories are coming down. We are gradually employing more people. Housing relative to other asset classes--equities, bonds--looks attractive."

Shilling on the New York-area housing market and whether Wall Street money not being what it used to be has affected real estate:

"I think it very much does. If you look at what is happening to the stock markets and related securities in the last month--if this continues, I think we will see a lot of softness in Manhattan and in the Hamptons and other places influenced by that. If you read off the employment verses GDP curve, if you're looking at even 2% real GDP growth, that says that the unemployment rate would chronically rise about 1% point a year."

Kiesel on the West Coast housing market:

"Housing is very much based on jobs, based on consumer confidence. We were in the subprime capital of the world in parts of Orange County and we can show you houses that are down 50-60%. In my neighborhood, housing prices fell 20-30% from the peak. The economy is not a recession, we are growing, and banks are flush with cash willing to lend gradually and the Fed is set to reflate. The key here is that you want to own a hard asset in a world of very low to negative real interest rates where the Fed is going to print money. You have to own something tangible."

Kiesel on the opportunity cost of buying a home:

"I think stocks are looking at basically nominal GDP, which is 4% plus dividends of maybe 2, so you are looking at 6. There are rental yields in housing out there above that. Plus, you get the benefit of actually living in the house. From my perspective, I still think that housing beats a lot of asset classes."

Kiesel on whether PIMCO is looking at housing as an alternative to bonds:

"We own non agency mortgages and those securities benefit from a housing recovery. If Gary is right and we do see housing prices go down 20%, the U.S. will be one of the cheapest housing markets in the world. It is already near one of the cheapest."

Shilling's response:

"Actually, it would take a 22% decline in median single-family house prices to bring them back to the long-term trend that Bob Schiller has identified going back to 1890. That has been corrected for CPI, general inflation, and for the tendency for houses to get bigger over time. That would bring them back to the norm. They might seem cheap but there are only where they would have been for over a century."

bloomberg.com

Copyright © 2012 Bloomberg - All Rights Reserved Disclaimer: The above is a matter of opinion provided for general information purposes only and is not intended as investment advice. Information and analysis above are derived from sources and utilising methods believed to be reliable, but we cannot accept responsibility for any losses you may incur as a result of this analysis. Individuals should consult with their personal financial advisors.


© 2005-2019 http://www.MarketOracle.co.uk - The Market Oracle is a FREE Daily Financial Markets Analysis & Forecasting online publication.


Post Comment

Only logged in users are allowed to post comments. Register/ Log in